Starting a new thread, because the previous one is in danger of getting too long again.

I've mainly refrained from commenting on this thread, as Repentant, Steve Lortz, and Mark Coomer (and a few others whose names I've forgotten)have been doing a pretty good job of painting an accurate picture of Momentus and refuting the garbage that the few supporters of Momentus have bothered to post. Since the latest piece of nonsense from "Sopaint" seemed to pick things up again, I thought I'd start a new thread to continue the discussion.

I've noticed that of the few Momentus supporters who've joined this discussion however briefly, the only one whose displayed any ability to argue logically or scripturally was Judi Klug, who also appeared to be the only one who displayed any Christian love for anyone who dissented from the pro-Momentus viewpoint. I've noticed that those opposed to Momentus have, on the other hand, expressed love and concern for their brothers and sisters in Christ, whether they've taken Momentus or not, calling for those who haven't to avoid its horrors and for those who have to repent and return to the truth of the Word (not to mention presented scriptural reasons for avoiding Momentus like the plague that is is). I think that fact probably says a lot about the overall results of Momentus. Most of those who take it and support it really seem as though they couldn't care less about anyone else, as long as *they* benefited from the training (or thought they did--as they'll eventually find out how wrong they are). Those who recognized the training for the godless, antichristian heresy that it is are concerned for their fellow members of the body of Christ.

Another thing that I've noticed is that those who oppose Momentus can provide solid evidence for their opposition, listing exact practices and doctrines of Momentus and scripture that oppose them. On the other hand, Momentus supporters remain vague, at best, never citing any scripture that supports a single exercise or doctrine or characteristic of Momentus. They concentrate instead on attacking those who speak out against Momentus and throw out all sorts of unrelated arguments and scriptures that have nothing to do with Momentus or the discussion at hand, apparently in an attempt to confuse the issue. Which is appropriate, I guess, since Momentus seems designed to confuse its participants and thus draw them away from what they believe to what the trainers want them to believe, the same as its direct ancestor, Lifespring and its own predecessors. And we all know who isn't--and conversely who is--the author of confusion (hint: it's not God; second hint: it's the devil). (The sole exception to this tendency to attack without scriptural justification was Judi Klug. She exhibited no desire to attack and belittle, as have other Momentus supporters such as "Sopaint." Still she never produced any scriptural evidence to back any specific doctrines or practices of Momentus either. I can only conclude that she finally realized that she could not do so, as scripture plainly speaks against Momentus and almost everything about it.)

Therefore, in starting this new thread, I'd like to issue a formal challenge to any Momentus supporter--and specifically to the leaders of CES, who, after all, were the ones who led probably everyone chiming in on this thread to Momentus in the first place: Produce scriptural evidence for specific Momentus exercises(for example, the "Lifeboat" exercise or the "beating on pillows and crying 'Mommy, mommy, mommy!' and 'Daddy, daddy, daddy'" excercise [blaming your parents for your ills], or the dredging up of past sins from childhood or otherwise before being born again to get "free" from them) and for specific Momentus doctrines and teachings (for example, that we must practice "self-government" [as opposed to godly government]or that "the shepherd sometimes must break the legs of the sheep" or that if you don't get into what Momentus teaches you must have a "seared conscience").

If you can't or won't do that--and I mean provide *specific*, *pertinent* scriptures, not a ramble of unrelated verses as some have done--then you in essence admit that Momentus is *not* scriptural (which, of course, is the case) and that it's derived from roots that are sensual, earthly, and devilish. (You can deny it all you want, but without a scriptural foundation, that's *exactly* where it's coming from.)

So how about it? Can you do that? Can you refrain from attacking those who are concerned that their brothers and sisters not get trapped in yet another harmful spiritual deception?

If not, please stay out of the discussion from here on. (And at least, by your silence, be honest enough to admit that, when push comes to shove, you *can't* defend Momentus from the scriptures.)

Let the challenge begin.

Dear Truth reeker, I don't like push and shove. I'm off to a baseball game. Later, RM

Name-calling from RM! Excellent example of Momentous training! Mark

Dear Mark, Repentant,ahd Steve, I thought reeker was more of a proper name at the time. reeker means-to give off an odor and not one of a sweet smell. I was not even ask why or what my comment was on" isn't this fun." No instead I was attacked and told what he read into the word's I said. To me this is what I call abuse or "twist and shout" The "nonsense" was the discussion in the meaning of momentous mine included.Did I do that too? The fun was trying to figure out who I was talking to and trying to keep straight the lines of communication. Maybe fun was not the proper word. Maybe I should have said isn't this a challenge. A personal one.I'm not out to say that anyone's technics of handling a situation are always kosher. I do not believe truth seeker's were to be praised at the time. I hope I can break through the the boloney and get to the real issues as I'm sure we all do. I also had many positive experiences in TWI. And many hurtful ones. I have been to the Assembly of God church and have had good and bad experiences. I've been at Baptist churches and had good and bad. At work and and everywhere I go. Are you trying to get down to figuring out what excersises were what you percieve as harmful to others?I would like to figure that out to.I think those in Momentous are trying to figure that out also. A good place to start is to back track as to what was done or said that would trigger a reaction that would harm someone. That will take allot of individual work. Not all had the same reactions.In each class there was allot of interaction with all the poeple in the class. I could not address this properly at the time. I did not have the time. And the only people that can remedy thier differences are the ones that have them. You and I could spend months dialouging on this and beating dead dog's.If someone wants to know what the exercises are in the training I sugest that you go to the momentous website. Then you can weigh things with the word.I don't know if I've seen or heard of many who go to the extent of trying to reconcile their differences like those in Momentous.That is a very good thing. Since we are given the ministry of reconciliation I think that's a good place to start. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the father but by me. I saw some pretty hairy events at one of our baseball games with cetain individuals even the police were called. Not all games are like that. What made this one different? Do I now say all baseball games are bad? Certain people made bad decisions before checking out the situation. It could have been prevented but it still happened.I could endlessly berate them for their actions. But to what profit.Yes, one person was hurt.That made me upset. They worked out their problems without my advise. And the games go on. God is still on the throne. I agape you, RM

RM,

Lk: 6:43: For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

I say the corrupt fruit of Momentus is obvious. The fruit that initially appeared to me and others as good was not. What appeared to be good actually had the seed of division and caused a number of congregations to fragment and many brothers and sisters in Christ to become alienated from each other by taking sides. The tree is corrupt.

So, what is the fruit of Momentus? It is division. Division of mind (requiring institutionalization), division of the body of Christ (as witnessed by the many arguments here and elsewhere), and division of congregations (as seen in at least four that I know of).

Peace to you In Christ,

CT

Whoes side do you take? Love, RM

To All - The congregational "divisions" CT refers to (or "sides", as RM calls them) are one symptom of carnal mindedness, as we see in I Corinthians 3:1-3,


1 "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 "For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"


In my experience, the division within The Living Word Fellowship began when the "grads" of Momentus set themselves up as being seperate from, and superior to, the members of the congregation who were not "of Momentus."

Is carnal mindedness a good thing? Let's look at Romans 8:6-7 and 12-13,


6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be."


12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."


My experience of Momentus is that it is carnal from root to fruit. Momentus was supposed to help us pull down the strongholds in our lives that prevented us from being the types of persons that we said we wanted to be. During Momentus, the trainers quoted a prayer from "The Three Battlegrounds", a book by Francis Frangipane, "Lord Jesus, I submit to you. I declare according to the Word of God, that because of Your power to subject all things unto Yourself, the weapons of my warfare are mighty to the pulling down of strongholds..."

"...the weapons of my warfare are mighty to the pulling down of strongholds..." Is Frangepani's prayer *really* according to the Word of God? Let's look at II Corinthians 10:3&4,


3 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 "(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;)"


"Not carnal," but mighty "through God." What happens when we leave words out of the Word of God? Do we have the Word left? Frangipane's ommission may not have meant much in the original context in his book, but it makes a world of difference in the context of the Momentus training, because the Momentus exercises are not "through God" and they *are* carnal.

The exercises used in the Momentus training were not inspired by God. They were devised by the secular, quack practitioners of thought-reform who developed est and Lifespring. They weren't devised for the biblical purpose of pulling down strongholds. They were devised for the purpose of applying artificial physical and emotional stress to the subject, to the end that the subject's will to resist is broken, and the subject's belief system becomes putty in the hands of the thought-reform practitioner. The fact that Momentus puts a religious veneer over the exercises doesn't make them spiritual.

Momentus achieves its effects by altering the subject's brain chemistry, through applying artificial physical and emotional stress. In other words, Momentus operates by manipulating the flesh. Galatians 3:3 asks,


3 "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"


Very good questions, indeed!

In the context of the truth that we do not war after the flesh, II Corinthians 10:7a asks, "Do ye look on things after the outward appearance?" During the Momentus training in which I participated, it seemed that the trainer's warcry was "The physical universe doesn't lie!" If that doesn't indicate a "mindset" of looking on things after the outward appearance, I don't know what does.

The harm Momentus inflicts is not incidental, like the damage done by a fistfight in the stands at a ball game. Momentous was specifically designed to crush peoples' belief systems, like the machine that crushes gravel to build roads. Some people are bound to be damaged, no matter how careful the screening process.

Promoters of Momentus seem to believe that the "good" done by the training is sufficiently worthwhile to accept that a significant percentage of its participants will be seriously damaged. Let's look at Luke 15:4&5,


4 "What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 "And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing."


Apparently, Jesus Himself is interested in *100* percent!

Love,
Steve

RM,

Was your post "Whoes side do you take? Love, RM" directed to me? And, if so, to what are you referring?

CT

Dear CT, Yes I ask you. You said they sow the seed of division. What side do you take? Do you feel you are standing with them in your discussions and working towards some sort of reconciliation. Who are we to stand with or for? Who are we to stand against? Love, RM

Dear RM,

I try to take the side of truth and openness. I know that can be threatening to some. I believe that is a primary reason Dan T. & MMI decided to shut down their forum.

I believe it is our responsibility to let others know what we know if their well-being is potentially in jeopardy through participation in any given activity. But, they then are free to choose. I do not make the assumption that people who read anything I write would accept what I say blindly. They may not accept it at all. Would you prefer that I hid that I know that churches have been split, that there have been hospitalizations, or that Momentus is based on the New Age confrontational LifeSpring among other issues surrounding it and MMI?

The discussions I had with Mr. Tocchini in his forum led to no reconciliation. I tried to get to that and we had considerable dialogue both in public and by private email. He tried intimidation, threats, and other malice. You were a participant in his forum and a witness to much of the public dialogue. If you feel further work could be done in that area, I suggest you contact Mr. Tocchini and let him know there is a considerable amount of discussion regarding Momentus at this forum and I am part of it. I have suggested this to others of the "Momentus persuasion" in the past, but for some reason it seems no action is taken somewhere along the line.

Now, I ask you: Why do you play "caretaker" to this group?

In Christ,

CT

Dear CT, If I am playing care taker to anyone I think I would have to say You. No one here can reconcile your differences for you. I think the accustions you have with Momentous have been thourougly discussed. What do you want to acomplish here? How many times are you going to challenge diolouge. I am pretty much aware of your complaints and where there have been problems.I hear you. They have to deal with them and answer to God as we all do. What do you suggest as a Godly solution. I can't take away what happens or happened neither can you. I can't change what undividuals did in TWI. Seems the whole forum is being dominated by a few individuals that want to only rant and rave endlessly over past harm without resolving their differences. I guess we could call this" the bashing forum " How wrong you are- How right I am.Lord please give us peace somewhere in between. I think the place is in Him. Love,RM I won't be will in be in the forum for awhile:}So if you get no responce you will know why.